Sober Living & Choosing to be Child-Free ft. Ruby Warrington

show notes

november 28, 2023

This week Morgan DeBaun is joined by author Ruby Warrington, the creator of the term "sober curious," for a thought-provoking conversation on sobriety, the pressure to conform, and the nuances of being child-free in a world defined by expectations.

Ruby shares her transformative journey of becoming sober curious, and choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle, and Morgan opens up about her personal realization during pregnancy on how deeply entrenched alcohol is within our culture. Together they discuss the challenges non-drinkers face, particularly in professional settings where alcohol often acts as a networking lubricant. Ruby boldly addresses how the lack of alternatives for non-drinkers can perpetuate a sense of exclusion, even hinting at a form of discrimination.

As the holiday season approaches and social drinking is at a high, Ruby invites listeners to reevaluate their relationship with alcohol. She poses a powerful question: "Would my life be better without alcohol?"

Steering the conversation into another significant aspect of personal choice, Ruby shares her experience as a woman who has chosen to be child-free. Both she and Morgan unpack the societal pressures on women regarding motherhood, challenging the stereotypes and implications associated with a woman's decision to not have children or to approach motherhood in a way that is deemed outside the norm.

Reflecting on the battles fought by our foremothers for women's autonomy, Ruby highlights the privilege of choice and encourages intentional decision-making in all areas of life.

Tune in to this engaging conversation that is sure to empower you to get sober curious, question societal norms, and embrace the freedom of choice in a world filled with expectations.

If you have any takeaways as you embark on your own sober curious journey, make sure to share with Morgan!

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transcript

00:00

You know, people are already asking me, are you gonna have two kids, are you gonna have three kids? I'm like, we barely have one. What are you talking about? Like. Hey everyone, I'm Morgan DeBaun, a passionate entrepreneur and life advisor. With the Journey podcast, you'll discover that success isn't about the destination, it's about the journey. I'm sharing stories of amazing people who've taken control of their lives. Join me on my own journey to discover the secret sauce behind reaching success with permission from no one else.

00:31

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Journey Podcast. I am pumped today because I am joined by Ruby. Today we're going to talk about all things sober curious and also we're going to talk a little bit about women who choose not to have children. As you guys know, I have been sober for over nine months now, not necessarily by choice, but also kind of by choice. And it brought up a lot of things that I didn't think about. I didn't think about...

00:58

when deciding to have a baby, how that would impact my social life, even people inviting me to different things. The other week, one of my girlfriends came in town and we were invited to a, it was a music meets wine tasting experience. And I got the invitation and I was like, oh, I want to go to this. And then I was like, oh, like, is this going to be a weird, like the whole point of it is like a wine tasting with music pairing and food pairing. And

01:27

I've just so many times in this last, you know, since I've been pregnant and having a baby, like been challenged with thoughts that I had never really considered in terms of how alcohol is built into everything we do. Weddings, I went to a wedding and you know, they hand you champagne. I'm like, oh no champagne. Do you have water? Like, can I get a ginger ale or something? And they didn't even have another option.

01:54

So I guess Ruby, tell us a little bit about your journey. You also were one of the founders of the term Sober Curious. And what does that mean? And tell us a little bit about your journey. Yeah, sure. There's so much in there. You touched on so many interesting things that I know we're gonna get into more deeply, but yeah, so I actually coined the term Sober Curious back in 2016 when I was...

02:19

questioning and sort of reevaluating my own relationship with alcohol. My background is in journalism I came up in the UK, which is a very boozy culture anyway But then the journalism as a career also is very kind of alcohol Centric as it is in startup world as it is in tech as it is in the legal profession There's a lot of substance abuse across many industries, you know, it's the same deal and

02:43

Yeah, so in my 20s and 30s, I became what I call a very enthusiastic social drinker, meaning I drank to socialize. I never drank on my own. I drank to kind of like dial up the fun, to ease social anxiety, to give me more energy in the evenings when maybe I was burnt out from a full day at work, but I needed to kind of like switch it on and be buzzed. And my drinking developed into, yeah, I guess, quite a strong dependency on alcohol.

03:11

But it wasn't until I considered removing it and what that might mean for me that I realized, A, quite how dependent on alcohol I had become, and B, how deeply interwoven alcohol is into every aspect of our lives. Beyond career, it's right there at the center of our friendships and socializing outside of work. It's right there in many of our family relationships. It's right there in every celebration, in every commiseration.

03:40

Alcohol is just kind of like the go-to. And it's very much expected that we will just go along with what I came to see and term the dominant drinking culture. Meaning anyone who can't drink, well, they have a problem. So they need to go over there and be an alcohol addiction recovery and just kind of essentially be outcasts from society. Or perhaps people can't drink because they're pregnant, maybe because of religious beliefs.

04:07

maybe because of other health issues. But if you don't fall into one of those camps, then it's just very much expected that you will partake in the drinking culture. And so I guess the reason I had never considered how much this has impacted me is because I'd never had any hardcore problems associated with my drinking. My drinking, even though it was excessive often, still looked like normal drinking. I drank the same, if not less than most of my peers.

04:37

And it was only when I began to, I actually found myself in my mid thirties just experiencing about a really intense and kind of ongoing anxiety. I was experiencing a lot of anxiety. A lot of it felt like it was connected to my job. I was in pretty high profile position in my magazine career in the UK at the time. Very deadline heavy. There was a lot of pressure. I was responsible for booking the celebrity cover interview for the magazine every week, which anyone who's ever ventured into that whole world.

05:07

is a whole like, it's challenging. But at the same time, also quite frivolous. So I had this kind of sense of like, is what I'm doing actually like contributing anything meaningful? And that was contributing to my anxiety as well. And I began to notice that my anxiety would spike in correlation with my drinking, which was interesting because we think of alcohol as something that we use to relax and unwind. But what I began to notice was that

05:36

the more heavily I used alcohol, the less control I would have over my anxiety, the more it would start to feel quite overwhelming. And that's when I began to question the nature of my relationship with alcohol. It doesn't look like I have a drinking problem. I don't think I'm an alcoholic based on what I thought alcoholics looked like. But there's something, I don't know if this is really serving me. I don't know if this is really like.

05:59

something that I can continue in this way. And in fact, alcohol, I think, is maybe taking more from me than it's giving to me. And so I coined that term, sober curious, to give myself and anybody else in my position permission to start changing, questioning, reevaluating the role that alcohol plays in our lives without having to mean, I am an alcoholic.

06:26

I must be in addiction recovery. I have a disease which will be with me for the rest of my life, which are very, it's a very binary way of looking at ultimately substance use disorder, which actually impacts many of us, you know? Many normal social drinkers also abuse alcohol. And in fact, alcohol abuse often looks like normal social drinking, but this wasn't a conversation back in 2016 that was being had.

06:55

And so I started using this term to apply to my own drinking. And then I started hosting events in New York and I had like 80 people show up at the first event. Two years later, I had 250 people showing up to my events and a book in the works. So my book, Sober Curious came out December, 2018, and really launched that term into the mainstream. And the latest statistics show that one in four Americans is in fact, sober curious.

07:25

which that it proved to me something I had begun to suspect even back when I first started on this journey myself, which was that many, many normal social drinkers were actually very privately and often sometimes even unconsciously questioning their drinking, questioning is this healthy? Do I want this? Am I really in control? Like, what would it mean to quit drinking? What would it mean to cut back and then immediately being confronted? Well, it means being cut out or shut out of a lot of

07:55

events, friendships, conversations. It means having a lot of people project their judgments towards me about what my drinking means about their drinking often. So yeah, I do think that in the past five years, we've just seen, yeah, well, I know, because I've spoken to the people, I've seen the numbers. Let's see how this term has really taken off. I think that we're collectively really starting to reevaluate how we use alcohol in the world that it has in our lives.

08:24

Mm-hmm. And I think the younger generation is even more, um, super curious, like Gen Z and even younger, eventually they might not, it might not be a part of their daily culture because there's so many new products coming out. What I found too, I'm an introvert naturally, and I would use alcohol when I would go to events as like a thing to do because I didn't want to talk to people, so it would be like, okay. Like my routine was.

08:53

You check in, you walk in, you scan the room to see if there's anyone you know, especially as a female founder in a lot of tech spaces that were mostly men. And certainly people who were much more senior than I was in the tech world. So it would be like, okay, then you go find the bar, right? And usually the bar line, you can guarantee the bar line is gonna be really long. So that you're like, okay, well, I've got like at least 10 minutes to get my shit together and maybe I'll meet someone in the line, you know? And so...

09:21

That was like my trick was like, okay, I'm going to stand in line and then I would try to stand in front or behind someone that I could maybe strike up a conversation with. And you get to the bar and I'm like, I actually don't want to drink because I have a lot of social anxiety already. I'm a sweater, like I sweat on my nose, I'm a pitter. So liquor was just going to make it worse. And then it's like, oh, can I just have like a sprite with lime, but put it in the drink glass.

09:49

Don't give me the glass is clearly not a liquor glass. I don't know why bartenders do that. Like that should just be a rule, you know? And, and then you drink that drink and then you're like, okay, now I have to play this, do this dance again. Right. And I did that for so many years in my twenties. And also most people in my community weren't like having babies and stuff. So we weren't in that place where there's like reasons that are socially acceptable to your point to not drink. And.

10:19

I just felt like it caused so much extra anxiety because I do remember times when I would drink too much at events. Not intentionally, but just like you're there for two or three hours, you're getting a drink every 30 to 45 minutes, three drinks in, I'm 4'11". That's not good. Then you're in a weird situation where it's like, okay, I got to go home, I'm a single woman. It's just...

10:46

I think alcohol unintentionally, to your point, it's not about someone saying I'm an alcoholic or I'm a highly functional alcoholic, but alcohol is a crutch. Alcohol is an additional variable that we're considering or that it's impacting our decision making or our choices every single day. And luckily as I got older and couldn't manage my rooms differently and I was in less rooms that I knew people and all the things.

11:15

It's been much better. And then when I got pregnant, it's been interesting because, um, people don't invite me places, right? And that was one thing that happened. My second observation was when I wasn't drinking, you know, there's that time when you were pregnant, but people don't know, so, you know, you say you're not drinking, people would come with the intention of drinking, whether it was like a group girls dinner.

11:45

or like a business meeting, you know, everybody kind of the social acceptable thing is we're going to get a drink. And when I say, Oh, I'm not going to drink, I'm going to have a mocktail or and have like tea or coffee or matcha. How much there was like a feeling of relief for some people where they're like, Oh, great. Like I'm going to have a lemonade. And I'm like, would you have had a lemonade if I hadn't said that? Right. And I think that is such a signal. Yes.

12:12

Well, it's a signal as to how much stigma there is, or how many of us are kind of like going through the motions, playing the game of alcohol is cool, fun, it's the grownup sophisticated thing to do, when actually a lot of us are going, and it's gonna be make my afternoon a right off, or the next day, or wherever it is I'm drinking, and I might end up in a regrettable situation, as you very rightly pointed out. There's a few things that really came up there. You described alcohol as a crutch, and this I think is one of the many paradoxes of alcohol, there are so many.

12:42

Alcohol is a crutch that we lean on, but it actually puts us on increasingly shaky ground the more that we drink, right? We think of it as a crutch and yet it leaves us so vulnerable because we're no longer in full control of our faculties. And absolutely rightly, you know, as a woman in the world, we are already vulnerable, right? And so alcohol, the reality, and this is not about victim blaming or anything, or saying that women, you know, women should

13:09

shouldn't drink because they're going to get in trouble. It's just the reality is that when we have less awareness of our surroundings, of what we're saying, et cetera, et cetera, we're less in control of how other people interact with us. That's just the bottom line. Yes. And it also just made me think about, you know, your vision of kind of being at these networking events where the only option sometimes for a non-drinker is a glass of water. It's a form of discrimination. I mean, honestly, the underlying message is you are not as welcome here.

13:39

We do not cater for people like you. And that particularly again, for anyone, a woman, women of color, especially in an environment which is dominated largely by white, highly educated men in the investment world, the tech world, et cetera, startup world. That's just another signal that you are not welcome here. You are not as valid as everybody else in this room. So it is a discrimination piece as well, which equally extends to pregnant women.

14:09

Right? So, I mean, I've met people on my sober curious path. You've really taken this up as an HR issue where they are expected to attend company events, networking events, they don't drink or they don't want to drink. There is no option for them. They've actually taken it to HR as a, I need you to, I need to be included in the conversation here. There was actually a kind of like funny, funny heart.

14:36

story that came out that was widely memeified not so long ago about a person who had officially taken his company to court and won, and I'm going to quote, the right not to be fun, meaning the right not to drink at company events and not be branded, you're no fun, you're not one of us, you're not a team player, et cetera, et cetera, because that was the kind of messaging over and...

15:02

and covert that he was receiving from his colleagues when he decided, when he stated, I don't actually want to drink at this event or this gathering or whatever. That's so interesting. We used to have an office. We're fully remote now, but we used to have an office. And, um, one of the things we did was Friday wind downs, you know, it was just Friday wind down and we had an HR team at the time, but everything was like one person and I remember someone asking me and saying, Hey, could we have pizza or food or activities?

15:31

at these wind downs instead of it just being about wine. And I was like, yeah, great idea. And so it became wind down, like wind down your week, not wind down with wine. And we had mac and cheese competitions, we're bake-offs. We had card competitions and we just made it more of a activity where alcohol was available, but also pizza and food and all the things. I can't say pizza without being a cliche startup founder, but like.

16:02

The people we did eat pizza every Friday. You know? Yeah, pizza's great. So yeah. That's right. So yeah, I also could imagine, and this is for anyone listening in, that even if you are in a position of power where you are creating spaces and trying to create community and trying to create inclusivity to consider things that you're like, oh, this is a benefit. We're giving people free liquor. It's like, hmm, are you actually also creating more spaces for people to be othered?

16:32

you know, and singled out. And you touched as well on the fact that there are now, and it's really only happened in the past few years, there's such a huge whole industry of kind of alcohol-free adult beverages, which is very new, very cool and exciting. One of, I think, the fastest growing sectors in the United States as well, from a business perspective. And so it needn't just be...

16:58

water, you know, or juice or cola or soda or whatever. It's like, there are so many cool options now that can be provided to give people even more of a feeling of being included and of being catered for and of being, you know, considered as part of the team to have their needs being met in a way that actually is more than just kind of like checking a box, you know.

17:22

Do you think that those types of brands that are like non-alcoholic beers or non-alcoholic wines still contribute to the social pressure of like, I'm drinking wine, but it's non-alcoholic or I'm drinking beer, but it's non-alcoholic. Like, do you think we will ever get to the point where it's just, I'm just drinking a drink? Like, and it's not a dupe for wine? It's interesting. I, personally, I have found those.

17:48

alcohol-free substitutes is really useful. Like in my own journey of actually removing alcohol from my life, the placebo effect of those products really helped kind of overcome cravings in the early days. And because I do genuinely really enjoy the taste of beer, I find it very uniquely refreshing drink. I've always really enjoyed it. And so the fact that there are now so many incredible

18:14

really well-made alcohol-free craft beers. It really helps me feel like I'm literally not missing out on anything by not drinking, you know? There are more and more de-alcoholized wines. If people are curious to try, look for the word de-alcoholized. It's a bit like a decaffeinated coffee. A de-alcoholized wine will be the closest in kind of like mouthfeel, flavor, et cetera, taste. If you prefer wine and you're looking for something to substitute. So I am very pro.

18:42

those substitutions just because I know how helpful they can be. But yes, I mean, I think it's interesting in the beginning, you touched on how younger generation with each new generation that comes through, people are kind of consistently drinking less. And we definitely see that with Gen Z. I'm sure that with the Alphas, we'll kind of like continue to see that trend. And throughout the time that I've been talking about being so curious, various people have talked about, will alcohol ever be the new cigarettes?

19:11

And it's really hard to imagine that, meaning like, will we look, will future generations look on drinking the same way that we look on smoking now, you know? In that this is something that people do, but like really, why would you? Because it's just so detrimental to health. I don't think so. You know? I mean, I think maybe binge drinking and the like collegiate type drinking that, you know, is very stereotype, but there is a art.

19:38

I mean, we go to wineries, like there's an art and a flavor composition to certain types of liquor. Yes, people probably say the same about cigars, but it's true. But it is true. Oh, you know what, that's what I'm like. That is what I'm saying. This may not age well, Ruby. I feel like, actually, I do feel like actually some of the conditioning we have around alcohol being this sophisticated artisanal product is also great marketing.

20:07

on behalf of alcohol brands. And, because actually when you strip all of that away, the actual substance that gives alcohol its mind and mood altering effect is a very toxic poison. It is essentially the same stuff that is used to fuel like cars and rocket planes. So, like. No, it is. And it has carcinogenic properties.

20:30

And also, by the way, is the third leading cause of preventable deaths in the United States. Like alcohol is linked to so many chronic long-term health conditions, heart disease, diabetes, many different cancers. And so it does, it's on a par. I mean, I think, you know, it's on a par with smoking in terms of the actual long-term health effects. Right.

20:52

But yes, it's seen as more sophisticated, glamorous, and socially acceptable, but then smoking was seen that way in the 1950s, you know? That's a fair point. So I do, and it's interesting, because I've always taken your stance, which is that no, alcohol is just so interwoven with kind of like who we are as a society, like how we operate as human beings. It does have this very...

21:20

um, seductive and appealing kind of instant. If we're looking for an instant off switch, like alcohol is going to provide that in a way that no other substance will. Apart from, by the way, you know, Xanax Valium, these drugs do the same things. Well, no cannabis is its own category really, but alcohol, alcohol is essentially Xanax in a drink. It does the same thing to your brain in terms of reducing anxiety in the moment. But obviously.

21:49

those prescription drugs don't necessarily have the same toxic side effects that alcohol does. They're also very addictive in the same way that alcohol is very addictive. So yeah, I always used to think, no, people will never, you know, our love affair with alcohol goes back to the dawn of civilization. We're never going to. Can you explain the difference between cannabis and alcohol in terms of what you're saying? Because I actually don't know that I follow. Oh, sure.

22:19

Yeah. So just in terms of what different substances do to our biology and the impact that they have on us, sort of physiologically, alcohol is in the same category as anxiety medications such as Xanax, Valium, etc. Now, I don't know specifically what category cannabis comes under, but it has different effects on... Properties effects. Different properties and different effects on our actual...

22:48

emotional and physical state. For some people, yes, cannabis can be very relaxing. Personally, I'm one of those people who gets really paranoid when I smoke weed. So like, alcohol was always going to be my preferred drug because alcohol would switch off in the first instance, alcohol would switch off my thoughts, it would numb me out. Whereas cannabis would dial up the volume of my thoughts and actually make me feel more.

23:14

So they do different things to the body, but yes, socially we see them as kind of like relatively mild, now increasingly cannabis is legal, so relatively mild legal substances that we can use to just kind of tweak how we feel. Right. And ultimately, and what's interesting, like we all know I think that alcohol is addictive. We think that it's addictive to certain people who are genetically predisposed to addiction.

23:41

But actually alcohol is addictive to anybody. And there's a chapter in So Be Curious where I talk about how anybody and why anybody who drinks alcohol on a regular basis will develop some level of dependency. And I think for a long time, there's been the thinking that cannabis is not addictive, but now we're seeing, I'm seeing more and more studies come out that show that actually cannabis addiction is very real too. And I think that perhaps the fact that those studies haven't surfaced before

24:10

is because it has been illegal. It hasn't really been included in the discourse around like what is healthy and what's not. It's just because it's been illegal, it's just been kind of like, no, we just don't talk about that. That doesn't exist. Yeah, and I think it's the impact, right? I mean, the point of something being addictive is also how much does this impact your ability, your relationships, how you function throughout the day, the choices that you make throughout the day, and...

24:40

Absolutely. There are people who have, I cannot go to work without smoking first or, or I can't go to work without smoking. Yeah. Exactly. Just like drinking, right? Um, so dry January is coming up and it's kind of one of those, again, socially acceptable times for people to say, oh, I'm doing dry January. And then no one questions it.

25:03

So for anyone who's listening to this, who's like, okay, I like this Ruby, I like this Morgan, I'm thinking about letting it go. What are the tips that you would give them to really set out for the month of January honoring their sober curiosity? Yes, well, I'm not exactly sure when this is gonna be broadcast. It'll be in December. This is a great time to be talking about it.

25:30

Holidays, like between, I would say between Halloween and Christmas or New Year's is like typically one, the time of year when the guardrails tend to go off. And it's just like, we just, we will drink more. I think during this time period, summer is another time that it's just kind of like, yay, whatever goes. But if anything, I think it's actually, whilst we're in the midst of, well, the message that to drink is fun, it's cool, it's how we connect.

25:58

while that's being dialed up is actually a really good time to start getting sober curious. To be clear, being sober curious doesn't mean you have to like stop drinking right away. All it really means is you're allowing yourself to actually start to ask some questions, make some observations, how is drinking affecting me? What are all the different conditions around my drinking? How is drinking presented in the society at large? Just kind of starting to take stock of like, oh, you might notice some interesting.

26:27

things that you hadn't noticed before. And all of that, even just that questioning would be great prep work if you do want to take an intentional month off from drinking, just to experiment. Like one of the biggest sober curious questions is, would my life be better without alcohol? Right. It's a huge question that the implications, the deeper implications of that question will literally touch every single area of a person's life. It's such a clear question, I love that.

26:56

Right, would my life be better without alcohol? And truly the only way you will ever answer that question for yourself versus relying on other people telling you or what you're reading is to take an extended break from alcohol and assess how do I feel mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually? How is my motivation? How is my sleep? How are my relationships? How are my cravings? How's my relationship to my body? How's my relationship to food?

27:26

All of these things become so much more clear and we can get so much deeper in our inquiry about our life in general when we're not consistently changing our mental state and our emotional state with a numbing substance that as we discussed, it's sort of interlaced throughout every area of life. So doing a dry January can be a really good starting point to begin to answer that question because obviously a month isn't like, would my life be better without.

27:55

I'm a big fan of like dry January, sober September, sober October, and it's a relatively short period of time. It's actually quite easy to just kind of put your willpower hat on and like muscle through to the end of the month. Perhaps in doing so, prove to yourself, see, I'm not addicted, see, I don't have a problem. See, this was fine. And sort of be secretly looking forward to, okay, the end of the month is coming. I can resume business as usual. So I...

28:23

personally, I actually had a follow-up book called the Sober Curious Reset that guides people through 100 days alcohol free. That three month plus time period is actually a much more substantial kind of opportunity to really start to feel like, what does my life feel like without alcohol? And it can help if you want to, if it's your goal to really create a sustainable shift going forwards.

28:51

But going into a dry January, having done some of that pre-work, have even just started to ask the questions and really observe, like, what role does alcohol play in my life and in the lives of my friends and family and colleagues? Then going into dry January, even with that extra information, can really help supercharge it, I think. And then going into dry Jan, I would say, yes, stock up perhaps on some of these alcohol-free alternatives that we've been talking about and really go into each day.

29:19

Sort of just questioning, how do I feel? How do I feel about drinking? How does it feel not to be drinking? And just really notice, just really notice and become the observer of all of your habits, behaviors, cravings, thoughts around alcohol during that month off, maybe keep a journal during that time so that you can really kind of make the most of that, that month of not drinking. Yeah, it's interesting because I have a choice on, you know, breastfeeding, you can still kind of say.

29:47

I'm not drinking and breastfeeding. Yes. Right. So I get like a little bit of like a window where I can still, I don't have to make the decision, but I've also noticed already that even my partner who I love and doesn't mean anything by it, but it's like, oh, I can't wait for our first vacation where you don't just get drunk. And like, I'm like, oh, like I might not get drunk. Yeah.

30:11

I'll still go wild, but I don't think I'm gonna. I love the clarity. And I don't like the feeling of waking up the next morning and being slightly sluggish, not going to the gym or using that as an excuse to not do the things. That's so common, how this impacts our most intimate relationships. For many of us.

30:36

dating starts with, let's go for a drink. And right there from day one, drinking is part of that relationship. That is the case for like the vast majority of people, I would say. And so this question, when the drinking dynamic in our relationship changes, how does that change the relationship dynamic? It's really, it can be a big concern for people. But as with everything else, the way through that is to just really take it one day at a time, one conversation at a time, to always, always come back to

31:05

This is my choice, this is for me. Thank you for your support of this positive choice I'm making for me and our family. The other thing I will say, and I don't, you know, the part of the whole sober curious approach is that I really don't want to be preachy. This is not about me or anybody else saying, this is what you should do and this is what's right for you. It's about hopefully empowering any one individual to really discover for themselves what is the right or the healthy or appropriate amounts of drinking or approach to drinking for them.

31:36

And so I think just even having that conversation with a partner who has questions about it Because of course your partner has amazing memories of those fun times you had to recreate those with you, of course

31:54

In relationships, we evolve. And part of what makes a relationship strong is being able to continue to evolve and change as individuals, as we are all destined to do, hopefully throughout the course of our lives, as we grow and expand and we learn from our experiences. If we can find a way to continue to grow together and not expect either one partner to remain kind of like crystallized in amber as like this perfect version of our, no, those days are over.

32:24

And there may be some sadness around that, but it doesn't mean we're not going to find that same level of connection and bliss and fun together in different ways in the future. You know, so the more we can just have those conversations on as the only the other one thing kind of came up as you were talking, like I have a sober curious Facebook group and it has about 11,000 members now. Very people are very open. It's a private group, super open, super supportive. And the messages or the updates that really always get me in that group.

32:52

are from parents and moms especially, you know, actually moms and dads, expressing how grateful they are to be able to be really present with their kids. Yeah. You know, and how much more competent and confident they feel as parents, knowing that they're fully present with their children, but also just like fully aware of everything that's going on in the home, you know, and as much as that can be.

33:21

challenging and exhausting. The rewards I hear people talking about are so great, especially from people who have done a lot of heavy drinking around their kids, really expressing regret about what they're modeling for their children, what they might have missed out on while their children have been young especially. And so, I don't know, just to plant that seed, again, not in a preachy way, but just in a kind of, it's something I see all the time, yeah. Look, Ruby, it's my podcast. I can be preachy if I wanna be.

33:49

You know? I don't appreciate you though. No, I mean, I selfishly invite people onto the podcast to talk through things that I'm thinking through, you know, just from a like, if I'm thinking about it, my hope is that there's thousands of other people that are also thinking through these things. And what I love about the podcast format is that you can say things and talk about stuff that normally, you know, like, I'm not gonna be like, hey, what's going on in my life? You know, so.

34:18

I think that that's the beauty of these types of formats. One of the things that I really love about you is that you are such a community builder and you have a whole nother community that you've built. Tell us about your other book and the women that you have also empowered with tools and frameworks for thinking through a big decision in their lives. So my new book, which just came out this year is called Women Without Kids, The Revolutionary Rise of an Unsung Sisterhood.

34:47

And this again is based very much in something I needed to figure out for myself personally. I never wanted to be a mother. And it's taken me a long time to be at peace with this being the right path for me. I really questioned my lack of desire to be a mom throughout my twenties and thirties. I really tried to talk myself into wanting this because from girlhood, I had been led to believe that to be a woman meant to be a mother. And that if I didn't do this thing.

35:16

then I would be at best, you know, sad, die a sad, lonely death. And at worst that I was, well, maybe that was the worst, but that, you know, I was cold, heartless, career obsessed. Maybe there was something wrong with me. You know, the fact that I never felt the desire to be a parent really did have me questioning if there maybe wasn't something physically or biologically missing. When I would hear people, my friend group, and my colleagues talk about just...

35:44

being overcome with this strong burning desire to have a child. And I had never experienced that. And so I internalized a hell of a lot of shame around that and a lot of self doubt. But then I reached a point kind of when I reached my early forties, honestly, looking ahead to menopause contemplating that being like, Oh, that's, that's no longer so far away. Wow. That's going to happen to me too. Who knew? Yeah.

36:12

And in that moment, not feeling an ounce of panic anywhere in my body that I had missed out, I had better do this because time was running out. If anything, I just felt such incredible relief that I really had stayed true to what I knew was right for me, and that that had enabled me, honestly, to pursue so many of the things that have been important for me. It's very rare to be able to make a full-time living as an author, right? Yeah. That's why it's something I'm able to do, and I'm able to do that partly because I didn't have children.

36:42

the only person I've really had to worry about financially in my life is me. You know, and that's a huge privilege, but it's a privilege that came about as a result of this choice, which is another privilege. Our foremothers fought for centuries for women to have this agency over our biology, right? And so I just started to feel that it was really wrong that I had been shamed for making a choice which...

37:12

has really been at the heart of the fight for gender equality. We've had centuries of women fighting for me to have this choice and I make this choice and I'm told you're deluded, you're sad, you're messed up. There's something wrong with you. Are you sure? What, are you sure? You will regret this. You'll regret it. I really thought there was another really rich topic that I was interested in investigating. And then I sort of put my journalist hat on and zoomed out and realized that actually the birth rate, meaning the number of children.

37:40

individual women are having dropping in every single country in the world. Yep. Even in the most patriarchal societies where women are still having on average, you know, four, five, six kids. Right. These women used to be having eight, nine, ten kids. Right. Even in those countries where the population is still growing, the individual birth rate is dropping. And the individual birth rate drops, guess what, in direct correlation with women having access to education and financial independence.

38:09

It's such a huge, huge subject, which again, similar to alcohol, we have such deeply ingrained conditioning around what is the right and correct path and who should be doing this and who should be doing that. And yeah, so women without kids at its heart, the goal of the book is to really valorize the path of non-motherhood, no matter how a person finds themselves here. For me, it was by choice.

38:36

There is a huge cohort of women who are childless by circumstance, who have had fertility issues, who haven't found the right partner to co-parent with, who are not in a place in their career or finances within the time frame of their fertile window, where they feel confident about embarking on the path of parenthood. There are millions of women among those women who are having fewer and no children at all, who are...

39:00

you know, who would have liked to have children and who were making peace with the fact that they are women without kids and with all of the stigma and all of the judgment that comes with that label. So the book is really about valorizing this path for all women without kids. Um, and I uncovered, I mean, it turned into such a, it's such a huge subject. Like it really is at the heart of our humanity and the changes shifting in demographics because of the low birth rate is actually going to impact.

39:30

everything economically, everything, everything. And a lot of the talk around that big picture piece is very scaremongering and it very much puts the quote unquote blame for the problem of our aging societies on women's shoulders. You selfish women and not having enough children, you need to get back with the procreative program. Which is deeply unfair, deeply misogynistic and deeply ageist. If we're talking about the problem of an aging

39:59

population, we're making each and every one of us a problem. We are the ageing population. What we need to be doing is really thinking about how can we value a human life from cradle to grave? How can we stop writing the law out of the equation, economically, in terms of contribution, in terms of just being valid human beings beyond the age of like 65, you know? People are living longer than ever. That's seen as a good thing. And then on the other hand,

40:28

These people are seen as a burden on society. So obviously I have tons to say on this subject. No, I agree. I agree. My first thought was I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, which is a predominantly, I wouldn't say predominantly Christian, but it's a heavily Catholic-influenced area. We have the archdiocese. I went to a Catholic all-girls school. And it was very much.

40:55

indoctrinated into me that the point of marriage was to have children, right? And you know, be fruitful and multiply. And also no contraceptives. It was like a really weird thing. And it took me a while, you know, you don't know you're getting indoctrinated in that way all the time, especially as a young person. Like it takes, for me, it took time to really question it because then it became, well, what's the point of marriage?

41:24

If I don't have kids anytime soon, like why should I even be pursuing like marriage and all of these things? And then it was like, okay, well, so like my partner and I aren't married, but we're having a kid. So like, I'm all out of order. Right? It's like, okay, we really wanted to decide we're going to get married because we're deciding to be legally bound in partnership for the rest of our life.

41:52

And before we decided to have kids, one of the things I was really terrified of, because I feel so grateful to really be in love with my best friend. And selfishly, I was like, I just got you. Like, I'm just now here and this is so fun and this is so good. Like, why would I mess this up? A child and we're living our best. We're traveling. We do whatever we want, you know, and.

42:21

felt the same way. It was like, oh my god, why are we sure we want to have kids at all? Would we be okay without a child? Ultimately, obviously, we're having a baby, but one of the things that we made a commitment to ourselves was it's hard, it's going to be hard to do, was the baby at one point will grow up and be its own person and they will leave the house and we will be here together.

42:50

Are we going to make our lives in those 18 years about this human or how are we going to create space for it to be also about us as a couple and us as individuals? And are we going to be okay with maybe some of the consequences that comes with a child seeing that? Because we both grew up in households where children were the dominant force, right? It's like my mom was staying home with my mom. His mom had a job that allowed her to be primary caregiver. The dad's worked.

43:20

they lived for the family. And I don't necessarily wanna do that. And then, you know, then once you are pregnant and you have all these things, you know, people are already asking me, are you gonna have two kids, are you gonna have three kids? I'm like, we barely have one. What are you talking about? Like, you know, our maternity leave. Oh, when are you coming back? Or are you not gonna come back? I'm like, are you crazy? I just spent 10 years building this fucking company. You ask me if I'm not coming back? What?

43:50

Like, it's so insane to me, like the expectations that are put onto you as soon as you become a mother. So, you know, I say this as for anyone who's listening in, who's like, yeah, I don't know, because you have to be very strong willed if you want to keep up your independence and keep up your partnership independence and still have children, because every direction, your doctor, your OB, society, your parents.

44:20

the parents of the kids that your kids are gonna play with that have four or five kids, and you're just like, it's enough for me. And I find that following people like you, following others who have talked about being rich aunties and people who choose not to have kids actually gives me more permissioning and vocabulary and frameworks to fight that momentum that's pushed up against me, if that makes sense. So much, okay, again, there's so many things you said that I've been taking notes, I'm like, we have to talk about this and this and this.

44:50

Yeah. So first of all, to your piece about like wanting to being really conscious, even before getting into this, that it's important to you and your partner to retain your identities as individuals first and foremost, whilst embarking on parenthood. That's huge. And that's incredibly progressive too. And it's for that reason that I even state in the introduction to Women Without Kids, that this book is also for mothers who want to still be the women that they are without their kids.

45:18

and for not for this new role of somebody's mom to kind of come in and just kind of consume their whole personality, their whole world, and erase the person that they have been up until that point because I do actually believe, having spoken to many individuals, that things like postpartum depression, just feelings of kind of resentment towards children. There's two new books that just came out on this subject, one called Touched Out, one's called Mom Rage.

45:45

A lot of that is connected to this feeling of like, what now that I'm a mother, I'm no longer all of these other things that I have spent my whole life developing about myself. So this is also very progressive as is the decision to maybe just have one child, you know? And I've heard that from many mothers who've just had one kid too, that they feel the same kind of pressure I used to feel to have a kid, to have another kid, and then maybe another kid. Which again, this is, this is.

46:14

Again, similar to the alcohol conversation, one of these areas in life where it's one of the most personal decisions you can make, what to do with your body, whether that's whether you're gonna put alcohol into your body, whether you're gonna decide to use your body to make another human being, of course, the second one sort of has more consequences, but still they're on the same Venn diagram, let's say, they're on the same kind of scale.

46:39

It's such a personal, intimate decision. And in the case of becoming a parent, that is gonna influence and impact indelibly and for the rest of your life, every other decision that you're able to make. And yet women are A, expected to just go for it. You'll never feel ready. Nobody ever feels ready. You'll love it once you do it. That kind of attitude. You'll regret it if you don't. That kind of attitude. And that people...

47:08

from parents to colleagues to journalists to randoms on social media feel entitled to have extremely strong opinions about what we should be doing, which is just disrupting that is so, so important. And if you make a choice to say, you know what, we're just gonna have one kid, the strong, oh, you're just gonna, your child's gonna be an only child. You know, I was an only child, I hated it. Or I know only children and they hated it. Or like,

47:35

How selfish, like your kid's gonna have no one to play with. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, this is, what? And also single child families, that's been one of the fastest growing demographics since the 1970s. So it's no longer unusual to be an only child. Like it's actually becoming increasingly the norm, you know? Which, yeah, oh, absolutely fine. Your body, your choice, ultimately. But yes, there's.

48:04

there's so much kind of that goes into this decision and this conversation as well, which in some ways is similar to the sober curious conversation, cause it's about women without kids, um, especially are really kind of seen as outsiders or not really as valid or not really one of the team or part of the group, you know, and the same way that moms are, it's almost like, as soon as you become a mom, like the plus side of that now being

48:29

labeled quote unquote a mom is that there is a built-in community. You're instantly validated in that role in a way that women without kids often experience the opposite. I agree and I do I mean I acknowledge that also since becoming a mom I have way more intimate conversations with my girlfriends that I don't think I would have ever had with the ones who have children. I have so many I probably probably 50 50 I've got 30 percent of my girlfriends who are

48:58

have kids, whether they're married or not. Marriage seems to be the one thing we all agree. We're not quite sure. And it could just be we're of a certain class and a certain category of people. But like, yeah, I think the conversations, the amount of just them checking in or sending me, you know, oh, here's this little thing on Amazon I'm just going to send to you. You know, that has been really beautiful, the relationships I've been able to deepen with women in my life. And then

49:25

Conversely, I'd say probably 30% of my friends are in the, I'm never gonna have kids category. And I'm like, great, I'm having a community baby. So like, I'm team number one, I'm team number two, and I asked them, I said, one of my girlfriends, I said, I know you're not gonna have kids, I know you don't want kids. How would you like to be involved in this child's life? Like, do you want?

49:50

to be invited to the baseball games, like the everyday stuff? Or do you want to be invited to the birthdays and like, what role do you want to play? Because I think it could be such a beautiful opportunity for my child to have a fully engaged aunt, or set of aunts and uncles. And the way that I don't think I really experienced because they had their own kids, you know? And

50:15

Just having that dialogue and opening that dialogue, just because someone chooses not to have kids doesn't mean they don't wanna have kids in their life. Right, exactly. And also some people choose not to have kids because they really don't like being around kids. You know? And that's okay too. You know? With a lot of my friends, I'm like, you know, hang out with your kid once they're eight. Yeah, but then I'm like, perfect. Then like, let's go somewhere. Right, exactly. I love that because then also.

50:43

I definitely have one friend that's like that. I'm like, great, like you should be my, we should go on vacation because then we don't have to talk about this shit at all. I actually went on the Tamron Hall show to talk about this book. And she was like, she's like, yeah, I called them my get out of jail free friends. The ones who I know I can call up and like slip right back into old me or like, you know, me who was not a mom. And I definitely, I definitely see myself being that for some of my mom friends, like.

51:12

I'm the one they call when they need a weekend away or a night off where they just do not want to talk about anything to do with their kids. And that's perfectly fine. It doesn't mean that they are bad mothers for wanting to have a night off or a weekend off, you know? Um, I love the fact that you're already having those really open conversations with your friends because I don't know if you saw it, there was a big article. It was a cover story of New York magazine a couple of weeks ago, and it was kind of like,

51:37

can parents and non-parents ever be friends? Yes, I did see that. And talks in depth actually about a lot of the emotional challenges that can come up. And it's again, similar like can drinkers and non-drinkers ever be friends? Can we still find ways to bond and things to come together over when this thing is, we're no longer aligned on this one kind of area of life. Exactly, when it's not as dominant in our identity. Yeah, I mean, I share all these things knowing that stuff will change and you guys might.

52:06

get a podcast episode, 10 episodes from now where I'm like, well, actually this is what's going on now. But I think Ruby, like what's important about all of these conversations is that. To your point, we're intentional about how we are thinking about these choices. We're not just being pushed with the momentum of society. It's like, think about it. You have the freedom of thought. That's what makes humans, humans. So like, why are we just going with the flow?

52:35

And there are so many people in the world who do not have access to the privilege of the choices that we have and having these choices, I do think it's kind of like, not a duty, but we should act on these choices, you know, just to, to model that this is like, this is what it can mean to live a really kind of like full and vibrant life, you know, this is what, let me if our ancestors didn't have these choices and it's like, let's, let's use the choices that we've been given, you know.

53:04

Yeah, and question the things that we were brought up in because oftentimes we're not, we don't even know that it is a choice to have. Exactly. You know, we don't even know. That's not, it could have been something else. So Ruby, how can everyone stay connected to you? Where can they follow you on social media and where can they, well, of course they can buy your books everywhere books are sold. I know that. Yes, indeed. My books are available widely. Sober Curious, the Sober Curious Reset, remember that 100 day reset.

53:34

and Women Without Kids. I'm on Instagram at Ruby Warrington. There is a Sober Curious Facebook group and a Women Without Kids Facebook group where private, very open-minded communities are developing around these subjects. I also have two in-person weekend-long retreats at Kripalu, which is a retreat center in Massachusetts. There'll be a Sober Curious retreat in January. I think it's like January 12th to 14th.

54:02

And then there's going to be a women without kids retreat at the end of March. I think it's like March 22nd to 24th. That's going to be with Rachel Cargill, who some people might know as the founder of the Child Free platform, Rich Auntie Supreme amongst many other things. Yeah, Rachel was on the podcast. Awesome. So those two in person, because again, both of these subjects are areas where you can feel very lonely or like, I'm the only one if I'm making this choice for myself or walking this path.

54:32

I've found that having these in-person deep dives can just be incredibly validating for people. People can meet friends, find new communities to feel part of, just really beautiful experiences. So all of the details of those are gonna be on my website and on my social media real soon. Amazing. And honestly, anyone, if you guys do wind up going, let me know how they go. Like I love to hear how people listen to this podcast, find new resources, get the book and tell me like.

55:01

how you've challenged yourself. And even if it's a week, even if it's a month for a dry January, you go for the full a hundred days, or you just even have the conversation with your partner, whether you said six months ago or two years ago, you wanted to have kids and you changed your mind, you are allowed to change your mind. Because child do not have a baby unless you want to have a baby. Yes. Seriously.

55:27

It's a whole human. It's like, do you want the baby or do you want to raise a human being? Like it is a big commitment. So, um, Ruby, I appreciate you for just sharing your knowledge and like sharing your vulnerability in a format that all of us can digest and learn from. So thank you so much for joining us today.

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Thanks for listening to the Journey Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you leave a review and head to our Instagram and YouTube to leave a comment. I look forward to hearing how this podcast has made an impact on your own journey.